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Einstein and religion

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Old 18-Jun-2008, 09:37 AM
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Einstein and religion

http://www.slate.com/id/2193557/

It Doesn't Take an EinsteinThe problem with using scientists' words to support religious beliefs.

By Michael Weiss
Posted Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at 7:10 AM ET

Science traffics in the great unknowns, admitting that it has far more to learn than it has to teach. That hasn't stopped some from attempting to enlist it in the defense of religion. The pope puts out an encyclical trying to split the difference between evolution and the Book of Genesis. Intelligent design makes a mockery of both the method of induction and metaphysics. And scientists who use deistic language to describe the infinite mysteries of the cosmos are made out to be water-carriers for ancient dogmas—perhaps none more so than Albert Einstein. He's been a genius well worth stealing. The nimbus-domed father of relativity was, throughout most of the 20th century, held up as the most impressive example of a rationalist who left the door open a crack for the divine presence.
Yet a recently unearthed letter should cool any further desire to conscript him as a believer. In 1954, a year before his death, Einstein wrote a letter to Jewish philosopher Eric Gutkind that was sold at auction for $404,000. It's easy to see why Richard Dawkins was a losing high-level bidder for this extraordinary document:
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilized interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything "chosen" about them.

When the letter was made public, many of the faithful reacted with casuistry or anger. Dan Porter, a Christian blogger, dismissed it and quoted Einstein's more religion-friendly gobbets, which Porter suggests should be added to man's corpus of "substantive thinking." Einstein was "no more an authority on religion than Pope Benedict XVI is on quantum physics," added Catholic writer Elizabeth Scalia, who then felt obliged to compare the nonquantum physicist's worldview to a tautological parable about monotheism favored by one Joseph Ratzinger.


The temptation to lure Einstein posthumously into the theistic fold is understandable, if only due to his charm and humanity. He was that rare species of genius who didn't espouse sinister or crackpot theories or go mad, as did logician Kurt Gödel, his walking partner on the quadrangles of Princeton and a likeminded proponent of a prioricity. Avuncular, playful, cuddly … Einstein could be all things to all people, though he never wanted to be. He was a socialist who enjoyed bourgeois creature comforts, a wit who courted celebrity but preferred his hermitage and frequently lost his way home, an internationalist who became an early and fervent Zionist, a pacifist who urged the invention of the atom bomb and then regretted doing so. Still, on matters of ideology, war, and peace, he could express himself plainly.


Einstein underwent a brief elective immersion in Judaism as a boy, but his parents were secular; his father thought the Abrahamic rituals "ancient superstitions." Einstein later told New York Rabbi Herbert Goldstein that he believed in "Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of men." (In the 17th century, philosopher Baruch Spinoza was excommunicated from Judaism on suspicion of atheism—allegations that Rebecca Goldstein argues in Betraying Spinoza were, in fact, correct.) When a rumor was circulated in 1945 that a Jesuit priest had converted him, Einstein thundered back: "I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist."
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Old 21-Jun-2008, 11:00 AM
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I'm not sure, but are you an Atheist?

Why is it i always find Atheists who spend their whole lives talking about religion continuously, specially when they think its a waist of a life time?

you are lost, every post you create involves religion, buddy find a new hobby stop taking the pills too early in the morning.
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Old 21-Jun-2008, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by usdm
I'm not sure, but are you an Atheist?

Why is it i always find Atheists who spend their whole lives talking about religion continuously, specially when they think its a waist of a life time?

you are lost, every post you create involves religion,
Well, this is actually quite true of Bruce.

Here is an example. Rebellious teenagers dress, act and talk differently than everyone else. However, the fact remains, that they are doing this based upon the majority's conception of what is cool. They are just trying to do the direct opposite.

So, in fact, even though the rebellious teenager thinks he/she is being an individual, he/she is still defining him/herself based upon the norm (conformity).

Based on reason I'm not really sure how one can hold such strong convictions for atheism anymore than theism.

Here is something to consider Bruce.

We can say:

1 + 1 = 2
1 + 1 = 3
1 + 1 = 8

Now, based on ordinary mathematical principles only the first one of these are true. However, my existence does not prevent me from saying the erroneous equations are true.

So, you have a world where false reasoning is permitted. The realm of knowledge permits one to suggest anything. As well, this is in the realm of what the mind can think.

However, there are some things we cannot think no matter how hard we try.

Try conceptualizing infinite space! It is impossible to do, because we can always conceptualize a little more. So, there are things so great the human mind cannot conceive, yet how is it that we can think of something (infinity) and yet we cannot conceive it?

So Bruce, in your world of matter and knowledge, you don't seem to consider there may be things impossible for your mind to comprehend and yet you seem so sure of atheism.

How do you know your mind is not serperate from the biological make-up of the brain?

You don't know that any more than I do. At least, I don't see any way for you to prove it.

So, how do you know God does not exist? Afterall, just like infinity, I cannot conceptualize him (it) the all, first cause, etc.

Last edited by scary.robot; 21-Jun-2008 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 21-Jun-2008, 06:13 PM
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Bruce has a problem with life in general
he doesn't believe in religion
doesn't believe in police keeping the peace in society; he feels that ppl should be given guns and they should enforce the law
he doesn't believe in a lot of things; which is what makes his posts interesting at times; other times i think he's just a complete idiot
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Old 21-Jun-2008, 08:05 PM
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Bruce physically attacked his father too once.
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Old 22-Jun-2008, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 1999blksi
Bruce has a problem with life in general
he doesn't believe in religion
doesn't believe in police keeping the peace in society; he feels that ppl should be given guns and they should enforce the law
he doesn't believe in a lot of things; which is what makes his posts interesting at times; other times i think he's just a complete idiot
wow, you perceive a lot from reading sevs posts. i wish i had your ability. i think brucie is a way more sophisticated believer than most of you.

people always condemn what they are afraid of.....
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Old 22-Jun-2008, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by LEITNER
wow, you perceive a lot from reading sevs posts. i wish i had your ability. i think brucie is a way more sophisticated believer than most of you.

people always condemn what they are afraid of.....
it's okay; not a lot of ppl have my abilities.
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Old 22-Jun-2008, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by LEITNER

people always condemn what they are afraid of.....
U said it ursef. That's why non believers condemn religion most of the time. I'm not surprised to see u calling a bunch of crap threads and posts sophisticated.
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Old 22-Jun-2008, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by szuberi
U said it ursef. That's why non believers condemn religion most of the time. I'm not surprised to see u calling a bunch of crap threads and posts sophisticated.
BAM!!! right on the money
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Old 22-Jun-2008, 11:33 AM
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all y'all are messed up...who cares what you do and what you dont believe in...just when I sneeze dont say "bless you" to me because I will say "no thank you"
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Old 22-Jun-2008, 02:36 PM
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*yawn*
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Old 22-Jun-2008, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JoonyaSI
*yawn*
go to bed if u are tired
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Old 22-Jun-2008, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by usdm
I'm not sure, but are you an Atheist?
...every post you create involves religion, buddy find a new hobby stop taking the pills too early in the morning.
I take great offense to this. at least 12% of my posts are dedicated to zombies and police corruption/abuse.

posting here online isn't a hobby. It's something I do at work.

and sometimes I look at information for my civic as well.




Originally Posted by szuberi
Bruce physically attacked his father too once.
then i ate his brains!!!!

i want to get a head start on the whole zombie thing.

----

i will not say i am 100% sure that there is only the physical world.

I will say that I don't believe in organized religion.

Non-believers in many countries are oppressed and I see more and more of that coming to be the norm in North America.

This concerns me.

People didn't act on Hitler until they saw that eventually they would.

Organized religion is nothing but a social poison.

I like "discussing". I know about religion and politics only because people get bent out of shape on these topics and they generally have no tolerance for anyone else's beliefs, regardless of what they say.

Isn't the great question "why are we here?"

or would you rather have posts solely dedicated to jdm stickers and what you saw on TV last night?
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Old 22-Jun-2008, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 1999blksi
go to bed if u are tired
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Old 23-Jun-2008, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by LEITNER

people always condemn what they are afraid of.....
Originally Posted by szuberi
U said it ursef. That's why non believers condemn religion most of the time. I'm not surprised to see u calling a bunch of crap threads and posts sophisticated.
im talking about believers sal, religious people wear blinders (installed by the preacher rabbi priest etc) so they dont stray from the fold and they attack everything that goes against what they believe.

sal i never said brucies posts or threads were sophisticated....i said HE was the most sophisticated BELIEVER among you.
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Old 23-Jun-2008, 09:12 AM
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i'm not sophisticated. i'm not a believer of any dogma.

i'm an idiot.

remember, most people aren't religious. any woman who wears a diamond ring obviously don't does understand or care about anything jesus had to say. the whole material goods are worthless, life is about spiritual/mental well being thing.. i don't know how that works when you're so concerned with the bling or how big the diamond is?!

I'd say that would show almost 50% of Xtians to not follow what they say they do in one way or another. I'm sure with a few other observations, you'd see that virtually no one follows their church's values 100%.
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Old 23-Jun-2008, 09:13 AM
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I agree with Bruce on

i will not say i am 100% sure that there is only the physical world.

I will say that I don't believe in organized religion.
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Old 23-Jun-2008, 10:03 PM
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That analogy of Bruce Fee is incorrect. He does not hate life, he just sees things in a different light. I can relate to alot of his ideas.

Like him I cannot put stock into any religion that teaches to hate others and takes advantage of those who believe for personal gain, then again is that just the leaders intepretation?

I see the Federal Government as the largest mafia in Canada. Force people to pay them a percentage of their salary or business earnings and spend it for their own personal gain, giving it to friends or giving it to other countries to boost their image. The Provinces support health care, roads, social assistance, ect.

As for laws, they are only in place to control the people who don't commit crime. Criminals do not observe them, and the court system protects the criminals.

As for Police, well I have a great deal of respect for them, the bad apples ruin it for the rest. You know those bad apples who want to show their power, and since law only applies to the abiding, those are the ones they have power over.

I choose to live by my own moral compass...I am spiritual and believe in karma. I treat others as I would like to be treated and I have no regrets in this life.
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Old 23-Jun-2008, 10:08 PM
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agreeeeee
Originally Posted by electronblue
That analogy of Bruce Fee is incorrect. He does not hate life, he just sees things in a different light. I can relate to alot of his ideas.

Like him I cannot put stock into any religion that teaches to hate others and takes advantage of those who believe for personal gain, then again is that just the leaders intepretation?

I see the Federal Government as the largest mafia in Canada. Force people to pay them a percentage of their salary or business earnings and spend it for their own personal gain, giving it to friends or giving it to other countries to boost their image. The Provinces support health care, roads, social assistance, ect.

As for laws, they are only in place to control the people who don't commit crime. Criminals do not observe them, and the court system protects the criminals.

As for Police, well I have a great deal of respect for them, the bad apples ruin it for the rest. You know those bad apples who want to show their power, and since law only applies to the abiding, those are the ones they have power over.

I choose to live by my own moral compass...I am spiritual and believe in karma. I treat others as I would like to be treated and I have no regrets in this life.
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Old 24-Jun-2008, 07:29 AM
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Like Michelle said, 'treat others as you like to be treated' is really the only rule we need to follow, everything else can be spawn off of this one.
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