full time union job?
22-Feb-2004, 10:58 PM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,255
gatherer, that's all fine and dandy in the jobs you have held. If there were problems, then you should be angry with BOTH sides.
Union contracts don't just magically appear out of thin air. Both sides come to the table and discuss what each wants......some times the union will get something, sometimes the boss' will get something. All the stuff they can't agree apon after a certain amount of time, goes to an arbortator. They will listen to both sides of the argument, and then make a deceision that will benifit BOTH sides. So if you were displeased with the way things were being done, don't blame the union, because they were only 50% of the equation.
I can not speak or give an opinion about the unions that you have come across.....
(I had to edit the rest....sorry)
==============================================
I feel sorry for the unions that you have come across gatherer, but remember, it's a 2 way street between the union workers, and the employer. Please remember that.
Union contracts don't just magically appear out of thin air. Both sides come to the table and discuss what each wants......some times the union will get something, sometimes the boss' will get something. All the stuff they can't agree apon after a certain amount of time, goes to an arbortator. They will listen to both sides of the argument, and then make a deceision that will benifit BOTH sides. So if you were displeased with the way things were being done, don't blame the union, because they were only 50% of the equation.
I can not speak or give an opinion about the unions that you have come across.....
(I had to edit the rest....sorry)
==============================================
I feel sorry for the unions that you have come across gatherer, but remember, it's a 2 way street between the union workers, and the employer. Please remember that.
22-Feb-2004, 11:06 PM
#22
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,255
One last thing gatherer......I can not compare the union you were in, with the one I am in right now. It's like comparing apples to oranges. There are too many different things between these two unions, that it would be unfair to compare them to each other.
22-Feb-2004, 11:43 PM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: on a race track
Posts: 17,846
PULOVR ... your proving my point 
seriously though your stating the lack of fairness with in a unionized job... they waved money at the "old" people and got them to leave ... why didn't your union step in a say "hey wait a second if you wave money for them to leave you have to offer the same amount to everybody else?" simple unions don't care about the "younger" workers... simple as that ... was it bad that they were left in a weakened state? well they had the ability to prevent that and didn't.... it's their own fault....
they older guys took the package and you would have too (according to your own words) well see thats because it would have been in YOUR best interest ,.... take the package and quickly find another job... (hell I'd do it too if I was in your shoes) however this highlights the biggest issue I have about a union.. it does not allow personal goals to be met and if personal goals are placed in front of collective goals ..(as in the case of this buy out people took it to further themselves) the union falls to pieces and loses out....
I love going for my personal goals and unions get in the way with collectve agreements and stuff.... they get in the way with strikes, I like to work I like to make money and quite frankly strikes interfere with that ....
ok strikes are good for raising wages and benifits...
but lets assume a person makes 10 dollars per hour working at job X 40 hours /week....
bargianing time comes up and company offers $0.10/hour wage increase... union says no we want $0.30/hour wage increase... company in turn says no... union goes on strike...
lets say strike lasts 4 weeks... and union strike pay is 100/week
at the end the union and company agree on $0.20/hour... the person is ahead of the orginal company offer right? and believes so....
well lets look at it ... 4 weeks @ $10.10 per hour (what they would have got if they signed the orginal agreement... is $1616
minus the strike pay (what they got) and your out 1216...
ok so they are getting 10 cents /hour more then what the original agreement was ... how long to make up that amount your out for going on strike.... lets see...12160 hours....thats 304 weeks or approximately 5 years ...
is really further ahead....
(please note these figures were pulled off the top of my head and then calculated for the calculations required....)
seriously was the strike worth it ? not in my opinion ... since it would take 5 years to make up the lost wages and break even with what the company orginally offered...
also I fully understand PULOVR that it is a 2 way street any negociation is.. however when in a union votes on a contract you are just one voice amongst the whole. if you don't like something or can handle staying out on strike for better pay or whatever and vote the agreement down you might still end up back to work the next day because the rest voted it in....(and not liking it because you didn't get all you think you could have)
while with a non union job ... the negociation happens the same way ... you get an offer by a company and can come back with a counter offer it goes till either A) the company pulls out ... or B) the employee pulls out and goes elsewhere for work... in the end you make the decision whether to go for the offer or final deal or just walk away NO one else once the deal is determined can force you to take or reject the offer it's solely your decision thats what I love about non unions ... I get to negociate and I do so whenever I want.... I got 3 grand more when I signed on to bell then what they offered me to start ... I again negociated when I became full time and got a bit more then they were offering ... I have done this several times.. why do they keep me instead of walking away ... because I work my *** off to show I deserve it .. a fellow employee just takes what they give and accepts it ... he's a whole "pay bracket" below me (pay brackets at bell are ranges of pay you get classed into one and then can't make more thne the max for that class...these "classes move up each year so that the top paid can still get a raise although not as much as the bottom paid for the class) does he complain? yup... when the union of bell tried to come into mobility he was the only one saying it was a great Idea ... the rest of us just said but why???? does he do the same work? yup... does he work as hard? nope.... does he broswe the web as much as I do ... nope... only reason I'm on here so much ois the boss can't keep me busy I finish projects with speed (always over estimating time to get done so when I finish early it looks good) anyways ..
basically what I'm saying in nonunionized you make your own choices you decide whats good for you and you negociate... in a union you get a voice .. 1 voice amongst the rest and sometiems that one voice if the minority can't be heard .. and therefore you don't get whats best for you in your opinion .. you gets whats best for you in someone elses opnion...
seriously though your stating the lack of fairness with in a unionized job... they waved money at the "old" people and got them to leave ... why didn't your union step in a say "hey wait a second if you wave money for them to leave you have to offer the same amount to everybody else?" simple unions don't care about the "younger" workers... simple as that ... was it bad that they were left in a weakened state? well they had the ability to prevent that and didn't.... it's their own fault....
they older guys took the package and you would have too (according to your own words) well see thats because it would have been in YOUR best interest ,.... take the package and quickly find another job... (hell I'd do it too if I was in your shoes) however this highlights the biggest issue I have about a union.. it does not allow personal goals to be met and if personal goals are placed in front of collective goals ..(as in the case of this buy out people took it to further themselves) the union falls to pieces and loses out....
I love going for my personal goals and unions get in the way with collectve agreements and stuff.... they get in the way with strikes, I like to work I like to make money and quite frankly strikes interfere with that ....
ok strikes are good for raising wages and benifits...
but lets assume a person makes 10 dollars per hour working at job X 40 hours /week....
bargianing time comes up and company offers $0.10/hour wage increase... union says no we want $0.30/hour wage increase... company in turn says no... union goes on strike...
lets say strike lasts 4 weeks... and union strike pay is 100/week
at the end the union and company agree on $0.20/hour... the person is ahead of the orginal company offer right? and believes so....
well lets look at it ... 4 weeks @ $10.10 per hour (what they would have got if they signed the orginal agreement... is $1616
minus the strike pay (what they got) and your out 1216...
ok so they are getting 10 cents /hour more then what the original agreement was ... how long to make up that amount your out for going on strike.... lets see...12160 hours....thats 304 weeks or approximately 5 years ...
is really further ahead....
(please note these figures were pulled off the top of my head and then calculated for the calculations required....)
seriously was the strike worth it ? not in my opinion ... since it would take 5 years to make up the lost wages and break even with what the company orginally offered...
also I fully understand PULOVR that it is a 2 way street any negociation is.. however when in a union votes on a contract you are just one voice amongst the whole. if you don't like something or can handle staying out on strike for better pay or whatever and vote the agreement down you might still end up back to work the next day because the rest voted it in....(and not liking it because you didn't get all you think you could have)
while with a non union job ... the negociation happens the same way ... you get an offer by a company and can come back with a counter offer it goes till either A) the company pulls out ... or B) the employee pulls out and goes elsewhere for work... in the end you make the decision whether to go for the offer or final deal or just walk away NO one else once the deal is determined can force you to take or reject the offer it's solely your decision thats what I love about non unions ... I get to negociate and I do so whenever I want.... I got 3 grand more when I signed on to bell then what they offered me to start ... I again negociated when I became full time and got a bit more then they were offering ... I have done this several times.. why do they keep me instead of walking away ... because I work my *** off to show I deserve it .. a fellow employee just takes what they give and accepts it ... he's a whole "pay bracket" below me (pay brackets at bell are ranges of pay you get classed into one and then can't make more thne the max for that class...these "classes move up each year so that the top paid can still get a raise although not as much as the bottom paid for the class) does he complain? yup... when the union of bell tried to come into mobility he was the only one saying it was a great Idea ... the rest of us just said but why???? does he do the same work? yup... does he work as hard? nope.... does he broswe the web as much as I do ... nope... only reason I'm on here so much ois the boss can't keep me busy I finish projects with speed (always over estimating time to get done so when I finish early it looks good) anyways ..
basically what I'm saying in nonunionized you make your own choices you decide whats good for you and you negociate... in a union you get a voice .. 1 voice amongst the rest and sometiems that one voice if the minority can't be heard .. and therefore you don't get whats best for you in your opinion .. you gets whats best for you in someone elses opnion...
22-Feb-2004, 11:44 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: on a race track
Posts: 17,846
Originally posted by PULOVR
One last thing gatherer......I can not compare the union you were in, with the one I am in right now. It's like comparing apples to oranges. There are too many different things between these two unions, that it would be unfair to compare them to each other.
One last thing gatherer......I can not compare the union you were in, with the one I am in right now. It's like comparing apples to oranges. There are too many different things between these two unions, that it would be unfair to compare them to each other.
23-Feb-2004, 01:52 AM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,255
Note:
The following paragraphs are vauge. Please don't try reading into them, because I will not explain in any more detail than what I have chossen to mention here.
==============================================
(I had to edit my comments........sorry)
==============================================
BTW, strikes are not only about wages now-a-days, so the example you mentioned, might have actually benifitted them if they did strike.
For us, it's long term gain, rather than a short term one.
I'm tired, and I have to go to bed. I HATE talking about work on my days off. (damn you....:shakes fist: )
See you wed J.
PS. Is it your turn to buy the drinks?
The following paragraphs are vauge. Please don't try reading into them, because I will not explain in any more detail than what I have chossen to mention here.
==============================================
(I had to edit my comments........sorry)
==============================================
BTW, strikes are not only about wages now-a-days, so the example you mentioned, might have actually benifitted them if they did strike.
For us, it's long term gain, rather than a short term one.
I'm tired, and I have to go to bed. I HATE talking about work on my days off. (damn you....:shakes fist: )
See you wed J.
PS. Is it your turn to buy the drinks?
23-Feb-2004, 07:08 AM
#26
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: on a race track
Posts: 17,846
First of all I wasn't passing judgement on anyone ... just speaking from my personal experience ...
While I completely agree that a unionized job is more secure then a non-unionized job at some places... (bell not being one of them) there are laws now that dicate amount of notice an employer has to give an employee of work termination ... while it's accepted that an Employee has to give 2 weeks notice regardless of years of service the employer during the 3 month trial period can fire at a momnts notice ... after that it's 2 weeks plus some time per year the employee has worked there ..(I'm unsure as to the amount of extra time but I know there is some)
so the law takes care of security in your job now, the law takes care of minimum wage another point that unions fight for (not to say you make minimum wage I know you don't) but since the law is there unions arn't needed for that ...
and the seniority issue (that really roasts me) I mean why should somone in a union thats been there longer get more benifit out of it then I do? the idea of unions was to create better work conditions for all the idea of unions was to protect ALL the jobs to make everyone equal .... however in unions you get the top guys with most senoirity more protected over the guys that have least seniority even though each can do the same job.... answer me this... is senoirity actually fair?
in my opinion it's not and thats the biggest issue I have with unions these days is that they do not follow the prime ideals behind the union .... fairiness and equality in the work place was the idea... but unions added the line ... but only for our more senior guys...
and it's your turn to buy drinks ....
While I completely agree that a unionized job is more secure then a non-unionized job at some places... (bell not being one of them) there are laws now that dicate amount of notice an employer has to give an employee of work termination ... while it's accepted that an Employee has to give 2 weeks notice regardless of years of service the employer during the 3 month trial period can fire at a momnts notice ... after that it's 2 weeks plus some time per year the employee has worked there ..(I'm unsure as to the amount of extra time but I know there is some)
so the law takes care of security in your job now, the law takes care of minimum wage another point that unions fight for (not to say you make minimum wage I know you don't
) but since the law is there unions arn't needed for that ...and the seniority issue (that really roasts me) I mean why should somone in a union thats been there longer get more benifit out of it then I do? the idea of unions was to create better work conditions for all the idea of unions was to protect ALL the jobs to make everyone equal .... however in unions you get the top guys with most senoirity more protected over the guys that have least seniority even though each can do the same job.... answer me this... is senoirity actually fair?
in my opinion it's not and thats the biggest issue I have with unions these days is that they do not follow the prime ideals behind the union .... fairiness and equality in the work place was the idea... but unions added the line ... but only for our more senior guys...
and it's your turn to buy drinks ....
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
int3gl2a
Chit-Chat
3
24-Feb-2005 11:48 AM
