imported_Bruce Fee

curiosity killed the cat
logical thought kills religion

Nova_Dust

haha

imported_Italia311

Well, I mean...I think that the bible was a Good thing, I don't necessarily think its a bad thing, then again, I don't take it for what it truely is anyways. Im not going to lie, I like the book of Genesis, and Exodus, but in a sense, to me they're just stories, maybe they actually happend...we don't know that.

I also think it is all relative to time. We gotta think here, when was the bible actually written right? How could they possibly know 6000 years exactly...you know? 6000 years (and I believe it was 4000 years ago no?) could have ment, 6 billion to us know, there was no way of telling, again this is all probability.

I am a geography major and we did study the earth for a bit, I believe it is actually 4.6 billion years old. I consider myself a man of faith, but I have decided to branch out and find more, rather then being an IRATE christian (born agains) who I despise.

I also don't think Catholics are all that bad. I have two priests in my family and they have not once tried to ram anything down my throat. You are only going to hear what they say if you attend church, and thats your choice. They're not on t.v preaching, I have never ever seen a catholic come to my door.

Anyways, while I won't deny the evidence of science, I also believe that the answer does not souly lie within the hands of science. Too me, God is God. The bible, and all that, well, in a sense that totaly separate. In this case, logical thought does not kill religion, it makes it stronger. Science, can only explain so much, and then you're left with a big question...once again.

imported_Moe_Mentum

^^^^^

I like what you posted man, some of the things here offended me, but your post was all good. I wish they would close all threads about religion in here. SO many lines are drawn between people who believe in God and don't, and then more lines are drawn between different faiths.

imported_nnniiiccckkk007

good idea, this isn't constructive....it would be good if this thread is locked...

let's talk about civics or the leafs..

imported_xray

Yeah...go to my post "Leafs in Playoffs?!?" and let the bashing begin...

imported_My93Civic

You seem like a good guy. I liked your post, it was interested eventhough I didn't agree with it. But I see where you are coming from.

Let me leave you with one verse.

This is in retrospect with answering your doubts in God and if there is a God and how could a God make all this earth in so quick of a time.

"Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."
Mark 10:27

imported_Italia311

Well thank you, and thanks to everyone elses comments.

Having said that, I never said I did not believe in God. I never had doubts in God. God.

Also, God created man, he also gave man free will to think. If this is true, than God would have known, one day, that science would soon play a part in religion through evolution of intelligence. Because God is all knowing, he would know. Why does science and religion have to be separate??? Why is darwin right, and why is creation theory wrong, or vise versa...I believe they work together. In a sense, if God truely did create us (which I believe he did) don't you think there is an element of science involved??

Like I said, think of when the bible was written. Think about intelligence in that age, and technology. Was it normal back than to even think we came from apes? No, humans were thought of as the only race, the supreme race. How do we know Adam and Eve, were not apes?

Anyways, thats just brain goin of...thats alot of probability. Think about it though. These things aren't here for no reason, science, religion. Those are two very powerful tool of existence. Why do they have to work against eachother?

imported_Bruce Fee

If god knows all that was, is, and will ever happen, then he never gave you free will.

if he knows what will happen, this means that the future is written.

when he formed the universe and built everything, he knew how it would exactly pan out, if we are assuming he is omnipotent at least. as he knew what you would with your existence, he was only setting things up to work this way, and this dream of free will is really only the actions of a puppet controlled by the puppet master of them all, "god"

if you truly have free will, then no being in the universe can really 'know' the future. God might have predictions that he believes in, but that's about it. if you are truly free, then god does not know everything.

you pick.

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religion and science HAVE to be different for a number of reasons.

One big thing is that science can be wrong. Science changes according to changes in observation, theory, and perceived reality.

Religion cannot change. Religion must be perfect. If God changes to meet the needs of the new generation, then he isn't so perfect and all knowing. If God decreed that you may not put your ***** into an anus because he deemed it a sin and wanted to test your temptation (what a sadist) then God cannot just simply change his mind and say it's okay for the gays to give it a go.

A church cannot just change it's values or beliefs and retain true credibility.

Most of the church's primitive views on all aspects of life challenge a lot of what science (and society) have to say.

We do not need religion for anything but emotional strength (kind of like telling your kids to clean their room or the boogey man will come). Inspiration.

We need science for a lot of aspects of progress.

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I'd like to add, there is nothing wrong with sprituality. There is a lot to be said to be said about the human mind/brain that can never be proved.

However, "religion" is the enemy of rational thought.

Nova_Dust

My thoughts exactly.

Why be good because a book tells you so when you can be good by believing in yourself.

imported_Bruce Fee

you can be good and not believe in yourself as well.



teaching me morals and values is a job for my parents, not some guy living in a church, who focuses on the afterlife more than life, and claims to want to teach me about 'life'

he can go to hell for all i care.

Nova_Dust

True.

imported_Italia311

Good points fee...however, I do not think religion is the enemy of rational thought. And do not believe science and religion are as separate as u make it seem...

I also, have been talking about thinks that I think could possibly be right. Im not talking about the church, or "a book". Why is it that "a book" or the church can only be the control of religion?

Also, if science can be wrong, than what makes it so right (according to some people)?

imported_Bruce Fee

religion and belief in god, as i define them, are two very different things. whenever discussing anything as broad as this, definitions are vital.

my definition of a religion is a set of beliefs and values, written down, and shared by a large community of people, headed by an institution.

believing in something, is different than identifying yourself as a (pick whatever religious group you want].

if you say 'i believe in a god' your beliefs and values can be anything (ie, jehova, or maybe you worship the blood god from Blade).

if you say 'i am catholic' or 'i am muslim' then you idenitfy yourself with a documented set of beliefs and values. if you are christian or muslim and you have premarital sex for fun, without feeling like you're commiting a sin, then you're a piece of **** hippocrite and shouldn't be calling yourself religious in the first place.

i have many christian morals, but i deteste the church. all of them.

if you say you are a denominational christian, then i will assume your views are similair to what your franchise of christianity preaches. otherwise, you're not reall part of the group. you just go there on weekends.

----

science can be wrong because nothing manmade is perfect, except maybe the Honda civic. our knowledge is not perfect.

the only way you can know absolute truth, truth that cannot be different, is to be omnipotent. why? think of the matrix. this is possible, is it not?

not necessarily robots, just that we perceive reality on a different plane of existence.
-is this a dream
-is this a collection of minds on a non-physical level interacting with eachother creating our perception of existence (controlled by god)
-is this the only 'universe' (parallel dimensions are very possible)

how can we know if a spoon is really a spoon? we can be 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999...% sure, but never 100%. Close enough to accept as a truth.

religion cannot share that. god is perfect. god is infallible. to question god is to sin.

i suggest doing a bit of reading and expand your mind. open yourself to a bit of philosophy. you'll learn a lot about life and thoughts.

it's pretty depressing though. haha

imported_Moe_Mentum

I am going to have to say you are wrong when you say religion cannot change. Well religion doesn't really change, but our understanding of it does. I am going to using Catholocism as an example. It has changed its way of thinking over the years where there were no altar girls, and go back further when it was believed you could pay to repent from sin. If anything religion is still very pure, its the human aspect which can often taint the image of a religion.

Christianity alone has so many off shoots, and most are seperated by small indifferences which were man made, not necessarily written in any book. So yes the catholic church has already changed many of their beliefs and it is still considered a credible religion.

Science can be irrational just as much as religion, just think of how many irrational conclusions have been made in the history of humanity. Even when one group of scientists believe they have come to a conclusion you may still have just as many other scientist contradicting it. Science is only as good until its proven wrong and religion will never be real to some people until proven right.

Only about 20% of the world does not believe in some sort of God, so I guess 80% of the world is irrational. Not here to preach, but those who preach against religion are no different then those who preach for it.

imported_Bruce Fee

I think way more than 80% of the world's population is irrational.

That percentage includes you.

Britany Spears, jihad, George Bush, unemployment insurance, police.

these are all things we hear only because of irrational people.

i'm not preaching anything. i don't care what people believe and I certainly don't believe anyone's views will be changed by me calling a few people stupid. I'm an idiot myself.

---

if you believe the earth is only 10'000 years old, then you don't believe in molecular science, or large aspects of it.

molecular science gives us the power of electricity, computers, magnets, drugs, chemical interactions, atomic weapons, and many many other things.

i prefer to think people who can design nuclear devices are more knowledgable than virgins who follow a book written about 2000 years ago with stories similair to those found in aesop's fables.

imported_Moe_Mentum

Well of course I am irrational .. I gamble lol but I hope you include yourself in that percentage as well. However, people who have a great knowledge in molecular science that can design nuclear devices doesn't make them any more knowlegeable then a bible thumper except for within their own field. Ex. my college proffessor Imad Khadduri who was performed nuclear science on the creation of nuclear weapons for Iraq still had to study to get his MCSE because his knowledge was limited to nuclear physics.


You say you aren't preaching... but some of your posts looked to be preaching why one should not believe in religion why religion is irrational.

You just brought up some things that are wrong about religion is all and you seem to post like you know it all (Not that I do). On another note it is not a sin to question God infact it iis encouraged that we gain knowledge" I know you must find me a typical 2000 year old book reading fable virgin, but you being Agnostic you are just pretty much on the fence. One who believes the existence of God is inconclusive....must be nice to take the east way out and being able to say you neither believe nor disbelieve.

imported_Bruce Fee

a nuclear physicist will know more about the creation of the planet and the building blocks of the universe than someone who derives all their knowledge on a book written even 1000 years ago.

i'm not preaching any belief or non-belief, I am merely attacking.

to my knowledge it is a sin to question god and his methods/answers, "he works in mysterious ways" and who are you to question the all mighty and most glorious lord, which is the creator of all?

i don't know it all, i know there is the absence of knowledge.

imported_Bruce Fee

in other words, i know i am ignorant. but i know there are many others who are far more ignorant than I.

imported_Moe_Mentum

Well I can't argue with what you said there... Cause I can't say I'm not ignorant because obviously I have a lot to learn still. But whats the point of wanting to obtain all this knowledge to know the unknown? I just have the impression that the more we learn the less we know.