New heights of stupidness in society...
15-Dec-2006, 09:48 AM
#1
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New heights of stupidness in society...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...d=970599119419
seriously... we're removing christmas tree's now? what kind of messed up society are we living in... stupid judge...
discuss...
Anti-tree move sparks debate
Judge's removal of holiday icon termed 'unfortunate'
Dec. 15, 2006. 06:42 AM
ISABEL TEOTONIO AND LAURIE MONSEBRAATEN
STAFF REPORTERS
Is the Grinch of political correctness back to steal Christmas?
A Toronto judge this week banished a Christmas tree from a courthouse lobby, reigniting a controversy over public displays many thought ended in 2002, when public outrage overturned a decision to call the Nathan Phillips Square tree a "holiday tree."
The judge's administrative move was "unfortunate" and "represents a misunderstanding of what we are working so hard to build here," Premier Dalton McGuinty said yesterday, noting Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and other faiths' celebrations are marked at Queen's Park.
"We enjoy the wonderful privilege of building a pluralistic, multicultural society," he said, adding no one should be "asked to abandon their traditions."
"It doesn't offend anyone when we celebrate Diwali at Queen's Park or celebrate Hannukah ... That's part and parcel of who we are."
Provincial Conservative Leader John Tory didn't mince words, calling it "political correctness gone crazy."
"It seems to be only well-meaning public officials who get onto these things and decide they're going to make a crusade of it when no one else is raising any concern," said Tory.
Their comments came on the heels of a decision by Justice Marion Cohen, who oversees administration for the Ontario Court of Justice at 311 Jarvis St., to move a small artificial Christmas tree from the main foyer to an administrative corridor Monday. In a letter to staff, Cohen explained it was a Christian symbol that might alienate people of other creeds and cultures.
But religious displays are lighting up many government institutions and courthouses, including a towering Christmas tree at city hall, and a tree and menorah outside Queen's Park.
"We should ban political correctness, not the Christmas tree," said Farzana Hassan, president of the Muslim Canadian Congress.
"This is stupidity and takes political correctness to new heights."
Living in a pluralistic society means tolerating and celebrating our differences, said Faisal Kutty, vice-chair of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Canada. "I don't believe most Muslims would feel alienated or offended by the sight of a Christmas tree in a courthouse," he said.
"But if they were on the stand and the only option available to them (for swearing in) was the Bible, then people would have a problem."
Their comments were echoed by Rabbi Mendel Kaplan of Thornhill's Chabad@Flamingo Jewish community centre, who called the removal a "terrible thing."
"Our society guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion," he said, adding it's ironic that the government funds Catholic schools, yet a court official opposed a Christmas tree.
Cohen declined to comment yesterday, but a spokesperson for the ministry of the attorney general said there is no overall policy and such decisions are up to courthouse administrators.
James Morton, president of the Ontario Bar Association, in a letter yesterday to Attorney General Michael Bryant, called for a policy that would specifically allow displays such as Christmas trees in courthouses.
"Inclusiveness and understanding are core values of Canadian society and our justice system, which are only enhanced by the sharing of religious symbols between members of ethnically and religiously diverse communities."
Robert Murray, chair of the philosophy department at Ryerson University, understands the view of some that church and state should be separated, but said he doesn't see the problem with displaying a tree so long as other religious symbols aren't excluded.
"This is part of the challenge of living in a pluralistic society — being able to accept that other people have quite different beliefs and cultures and their right to display them," said Murray, who teaches philosophy of religion.
Celebrating religious diversity in Canada adds to the richness of this country, said Gurmeet Singh of the Nanaksar Satsang Sabha of Ontario, a non-profit Sikh charity. "I don't think Christmas trees are offensive — at my home we have a Christmas tree and lights," said Singh. "This is a multicultural society, and at school my kids celebrate Diwali, Eid, Hanukkah and Christmas."
A recent Workopolis survey found that 83 per cent of Canadians say holiday celebrations have a positive effect on work life.
In 2002, Toronto bureaucrats were caught red-faced when they dubbed the giant tree in Nathan Phillips Square a "holiday tree." Then-mayor Mel Lastman, who is Jewish, ordered staff to restore the Christmas tree moniker and introduced a bylaw that prohibits the tree from being given any other name.
"It is — and forever will be — a Christmas tree," city spokesman Brad Ross said yesterday.
With files from Peter Small, Robert Benzie, Jim Byers and Jim Wilkes
Judge's removal of holiday icon termed 'unfortunate'
Dec. 15, 2006. 06:42 AM
ISABEL TEOTONIO AND LAURIE MONSEBRAATEN
STAFF REPORTERS
Is the Grinch of political correctness back to steal Christmas?
A Toronto judge this week banished a Christmas tree from a courthouse lobby, reigniting a controversy over public displays many thought ended in 2002, when public outrage overturned a decision to call the Nathan Phillips Square tree a "holiday tree."
The judge's administrative move was "unfortunate" and "represents a misunderstanding of what we are working so hard to build here," Premier Dalton McGuinty said yesterday, noting Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and other faiths' celebrations are marked at Queen's Park.
"We enjoy the wonderful privilege of building a pluralistic, multicultural society," he said, adding no one should be "asked to abandon their traditions."
"It doesn't offend anyone when we celebrate Diwali at Queen's Park or celebrate Hannukah ... That's part and parcel of who we are."
Provincial Conservative Leader John Tory didn't mince words, calling it "political correctness gone crazy."
"It seems to be only well-meaning public officials who get onto these things and decide they're going to make a crusade of it when no one else is raising any concern," said Tory.
Their comments came on the heels of a decision by Justice Marion Cohen, who oversees administration for the Ontario Court of Justice at 311 Jarvis St., to move a small artificial Christmas tree from the main foyer to an administrative corridor Monday. In a letter to staff, Cohen explained it was a Christian symbol that might alienate people of other creeds and cultures.
But religious displays are lighting up many government institutions and courthouses, including a towering Christmas tree at city hall, and a tree and menorah outside Queen's Park.
"We should ban political correctness, not the Christmas tree," said Farzana Hassan, president of the Muslim Canadian Congress.
"This is stupidity and takes political correctness to new heights."
Living in a pluralistic society means tolerating and celebrating our differences, said Faisal Kutty, vice-chair of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Canada. "I don't believe most Muslims would feel alienated or offended by the sight of a Christmas tree in a courthouse," he said.
"But if they were on the stand and the only option available to them (for swearing in) was the Bible, then people would have a problem."
Their comments were echoed by Rabbi Mendel Kaplan of Thornhill's Chabad@Flamingo Jewish community centre, who called the removal a "terrible thing."
"Our society guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion," he said, adding it's ironic that the government funds Catholic schools, yet a court official opposed a Christmas tree.
Cohen declined to comment yesterday, but a spokesperson for the ministry of the attorney general said there is no overall policy and such decisions are up to courthouse administrators.
James Morton, president of the Ontario Bar Association, in a letter yesterday to Attorney General Michael Bryant, called for a policy that would specifically allow displays such as Christmas trees in courthouses.
"Inclusiveness and understanding are core values of Canadian society and our justice system, which are only enhanced by the sharing of religious symbols between members of ethnically and religiously diverse communities."
Robert Murray, chair of the philosophy department at Ryerson University, understands the view of some that church and state should be separated, but said he doesn't see the problem with displaying a tree so long as other religious symbols aren't excluded.
"This is part of the challenge of living in a pluralistic society — being able to accept that other people have quite different beliefs and cultures and their right to display them," said Murray, who teaches philosophy of religion.
Celebrating religious diversity in Canada adds to the richness of this country, said Gurmeet Singh of the Nanaksar Satsang Sabha of Ontario, a non-profit Sikh charity. "I don't think Christmas trees are offensive — at my home we have a Christmas tree and lights," said Singh. "This is a multicultural society, and at school my kids celebrate Diwali, Eid, Hanukkah and Christmas."
A recent Workopolis survey found that 83 per cent of Canadians say holiday celebrations have a positive effect on work life.
In 2002, Toronto bureaucrats were caught red-faced when they dubbed the giant tree in Nathan Phillips Square a "holiday tree." Then-mayor Mel Lastman, who is Jewish, ordered staff to restore the Christmas tree moniker and introduced a bylaw that prohibits the tree from being given any other name.
"It is — and forever will be — a Christmas tree," city spokesman Brad Ross said yesterday.
With files from Peter Small, Robert Benzie, Jim Byers and Jim Wilkes
seriously... we're removing christmas tree's now? what kind of messed up society are we living in... stupid judge...
discuss...
15-Dec-2006, 09:51 AM
#3
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not like you have anything else to do @ work steve...
here's the version from the Calgary Sun for all you people with a GR2 reading level like steve... nice and simple
is that short enough for you? lol...
here's the version from the Calgary Sun for all you people with a GR2 reading level like steve... nice and simple
TORONTO -- A judge's order to have a Christmas tree moved from the lobby of an Ontario courthouse for fear it would offend non-Christians backfired yesterday, drawing the ire of everyone from the Muslim Canadian Congress to Premier Dalton McGuinty.
Ontario Court Justice Marion Cohen ordered the tree moved from the lobby of the Toronto courthouse to an out-of-the-way corridor because it was a Christian symbol that might not make everyone entering the building feel comfortable.
"This is stupidity and takes political correctness to new heights," said Farzana Hassan, president of the Muslim Canadian Congress.
"We should ban political correctness, not the Christmas tree."
The Ontario legislature celebrated the Hindu holiday of Diwali a few weeks ago and the Islamic holiday Eid shortly afterward.
Ontario Court Justice Marion Cohen ordered the tree moved from the lobby of the Toronto courthouse to an out-of-the-way corridor because it was a Christian symbol that might not make everyone entering the building feel comfortable.
"This is stupidity and takes political correctness to new heights," said Farzana Hassan, president of the Muslim Canadian Congress.
"We should ban political correctness, not the Christmas tree."
The Ontario legislature celebrated the Hindu holiday of Diwali a few weeks ago and the Islamic holiday Eid shortly afterward.
is that short enough for you? lol...
and you have a bill coming to you in 5-6 business days ...
15-Dec-2006, 10:08 AM
#7
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i think that the judge did the right thing by asking the tree to be removed from the location it was in. afterall..we do live in a multi-cultural society...and while christmas is at the core, a religious celebration..non-christians do not celebrate it the way christians do.
the tree or other decoration has nothing much to do with the religion however...its more socio-cultural than anything else.
at a courthouse for example...you have people coming to take an oath, verdicts, rulings, discussions etc. and etc...so i think it makes sense to have an environment which is purely neutral.
do u really think that this has anything to do with the judge being prejudice? absolutely no....we all know christmas is here....and it all feels good. i love it.
the tree or other decoration has nothing much to do with the religion however...its more socio-cultural than anything else.
at a courthouse for example...you have people coming to take an oath, verdicts, rulings, discussions etc. and etc...so i think it makes sense to have an environment which is purely neutral.
do u really think that this has anything to do with the judge being prejudice? absolutely no....we all know christmas is here....and it all feels good. i love it.
15-Dec-2006, 10:13 AM
#8
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mississauga
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^^ really???
so then should they also remove all the muslim/hindu/jewish celebrations from queens park??
Why can't we have symbols of all of them around?
it's about tradition and changing it for fear of offending others... maybe we shouldn't celebrate any traditions at all...
i hardly thing a christmas tree is a religious symbol anymore, the muslims and hindu's on my street decorate their houses more than the catholics/christians do... does that mean they're christian too?
so then should they also remove all the muslim/hindu/jewish celebrations from queens park??
Why can't we have symbols of all of them around?
it's about tradition and changing it for fear of offending others... maybe we shouldn't celebrate any traditions at all...
i hardly thing a christmas tree is a religious symbol anymore, the muslims and hindu's on my street decorate their houses more than the catholics/christians do... does that mean they're christian too?
15-Dec-2006, 10:52 AM
#10
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Originally posted by szuberi
at a courthouse for example...you have people coming to take an oath, verdicts, rulings, discussions etc. and etc...so i think it makes sense to have an environment which is purely neutral.
at a courthouse for example...you have people coming to take an oath, verdicts, rulings, discussions etc. and etc...so i think it makes sense to have an environment which is purely neutral.
this is stupid, more proof our legal system is full of idiots if this is what they spend their time doing, lets worry about crimes first, then we can debate whether a tree should be placed in a lobby..
15-Dec-2006, 10:53 AM
#11
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Originally posted by szuberi
i think that the judge did the right thing by asking the tree to be removed from the location it was in. afterall..we do live in a multi-cultural society...and while christmas is at the core, a religious celebration..non-christians do not celebrate it the way christians do.
the tree or other decoration has nothing much to do with the religion however...its more socio-cultural than anything else.
at a courthouse for example...you have people coming to take an oath, verdicts, rulings, discussions etc. and etc...so i think it makes sense to have an environment which is purely neutral.
do u really think that this has anything to do with the judge being prejudice? absolutely no....we all know christmas is here....and it all feels good. i love it.
i think that the judge did the right thing by asking the tree to be removed from the location it was in. afterall..we do live in a multi-cultural society...and while christmas is at the core, a religious celebration..non-christians do not celebrate it the way christians do.
the tree or other decoration has nothing much to do with the religion however...its more socio-cultural than anything else.
at a courthouse for example...you have people coming to take an oath, verdicts, rulings, discussions etc. and etc...so i think it makes sense to have an environment which is purely neutral.
do u really think that this has anything to do with the judge being prejudice? absolutely no....we all know christmas is here....and it all feels good. i love it.
INSTEAD OF LIMITING ....WHY NOT PROMOTE ALL...MAY HELP IN THE UNDERSTANDING YOU YOUR SELF HAVE ASKED FOR IN OTHERS.... INSTEAD OF TRYING TO DESTROY OR VANQUISH OTHERS BELIEFS........PUT THEM ALL OUT THERE AND TEACH PEOPLE ABOUT IT AND HELP THEM TO UNDERSTAND ALL THAT SURROUNDS THEM...
I THINK THE JUDGE IS A COMPLETE IDIOT AND IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY PEOPLE DON'T WORK TO UNDERSTAND THEY JUST WORK TO PUT OTHERS DOWN
15-Dec-2006, 10:58 AM
#12
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Originally posted by viper_2_4
the idea of anything government related being purely neutral is a joke...
this is stupid, more proof our legal system is full of idiots if this is what they spend their time doing, lets worry about crimes first, then we can debate whether a tree should be placed in a lobby..
the idea of anything government related being purely neutral is a joke...
this is stupid, more proof our legal system is full of idiots if this is what they spend their time doing, lets worry about crimes first, then we can debate whether a tree should be placed in a lobby..
sensible judgement comes with age and experience only...a judge or a high level professional in such a category can see things more deeply and with more insight than an average person like us.
Neil...i agree with you 100%...why not promote all. sadly...hallmark usually carries 1 out of 10 cards when it comes to eid/diwali/hannukah and other religious celebrations.
15-Dec-2006, 11:08 AM
#13
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Originally posted by szuberi
if you think the canadian legal system if full of idiots, you should look outside at some other countries for comparison. no legal system anywhere is perfect and is always criticized..having said that...our system here in canada is one of the best in the world when it comes to ensuring rights of the people who are a part of it.
sensible judgement comes with age and experience only...a judge or a high level professional in such a category can see things more deeply and with more insight than an average person like us.
Neil...i agree with you 100%...why not promote all. sadly...hallmark usually carries 1 out of 10 cards when it comes to eid/diwali/hannukah and other religious celebrations.
if you think the canadian legal system if full of idiots, you should look outside at some other countries for comparison. no legal system anywhere is perfect and is always criticized..having said that...our system here in canada is one of the best in the world when it comes to ensuring rights of the people who are a part of it.
sensible judgement comes with age and experience only...a judge or a high level professional in such a category can see things more deeply and with more insight than an average person like us.
Neil...i agree with you 100%...why not promote all. sadly...hallmark usually carries 1 out of 10 cards when it comes to eid/diwali/hannukah and other religious celebrations.
helps me understand betters was to make people fear me ...lol
15-Dec-2006, 11:16 AM
#15
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Originally posted by szuberi
if you think the canadian legal system if full of idiots, you should look outside at some other countries for comparison. no legal system anywhere is perfect and is always criticized..having said that...our system here in canada is one of the best in the world when it comes to ensuring rights of the people who are a part of it.
sensible judgement comes with age and experience only...a judge or a high level professional in such a category can see things more deeply and with more insight than an average person like us.
Neil...i agree with you 100%...why not promote all. sadly...hallmark usually carries 1 out of 10 cards when it comes to eid/diwali/hannukah and other religious celebrations.
if you think the canadian legal system if full of idiots, you should look outside at some other countries for comparison. no legal system anywhere is perfect and is always criticized..having said that...our system here in canada is one of the best in the world when it comes to ensuring rights of the people who are a part of it.
sensible judgement comes with age and experience only...a judge or a high level professional in such a category can see things more deeply and with more insight than an average person like us.
Neil...i agree with you 100%...why not promote all. sadly...hallmark usually carries 1 out of 10 cards when it comes to eid/diwali/hannukah and other religious celebrations.
this is true, nothing is perfect, but to neils point why not embrace everything?
i don't think hallmark should be compared to government... hallmark is a company that operates for profit, if the market was bigger for eid/diwali/hannukah then i'm sure they would make more cards to realize a larger profit in that area... those are business decisions, not moral decisions..
if i had stock in hallmark i would expect them not to make cards that won't sell as much as other cards for example... just being smart
the one quote i liked in the article was "it should be freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion"
i would think it just as stupid if a judge had ordered a diwali symbol, or a hannukah symbol moved to a back hallway because it might 'offend' people...
15-Dec-2006, 11:20 AM
#16
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Originally posted by szuberi
if you think the canadian legal system if full of idiots, you should look outside at some other countries for comparison. no legal system anywhere is perfect and is always criticized..having said that...our system here in canada is one of the best in the world when it comes to ensuring rights of the people who are a part of it.
sensible judgement comes with age and experience only...a judge or a high level professional in such a category can see things more deeply and with more insight than an average person like us.
Neil...i agree with you 100%...why not promote all. sadly...hallmark usually carries 1 out of 10 cards when it comes to eid/diwali/hannukah and other religious celebrations.
if you think the canadian legal system if full of idiots, you should look outside at some other countries for comparison. no legal system anywhere is perfect and is always criticized..having said that...our system here in canada is one of the best in the world when it comes to ensuring rights of the people who are a part of it.
sensible judgement comes with age and experience only...a judge or a high level professional in such a category can see things more deeply and with more insight than an average person like us.
Neil...i agree with you 100%...why not promote all. sadly...hallmark usually carries 1 out of 10 cards when it comes to eid/diwali/hannukah and other religious celebrations.
I don't agree about promoting all, because its simply unrealistic...where the hell is my Festivus Card!!!!!
15-Dec-2006, 11:44 AM
#17
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it annoys me how they get ride of a christmas tree to stop offending people, i thought canada supported tolerence of others, we go out of our way to support other religious holidays but god forbidd we show tolerance to christianity.
15-Dec-2006, 11:49 AM
#19
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Originally posted by SilverSiG
... i wonder if we moved to india... would they celebrate diwali differently because they wouldn't want to risk offending us? ...
... i wonder if we moved to india... would they celebrate diwali differently because they wouldn't want to risk offending us? ...
hmmm i wonder as well. lets go and see.
but yeah your pretty much saying what i was trying to get at.
its really dumb and it annoys me so much, like all this ish too about calling a christmas tree a festive shrub or something stupid like that, lets start calling menorahs pretty festive candle sticks.
grrrr
