This is why we work on our cars OURSELF
23-Jul-2004, 04:23 PM
#1
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Mississauga West Side
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This is why we work on our cars OURSELF
borrowed from ClubEL
Shops of Horrors: An investigation of car mechanics
CTV.ca News Staff
You have a 50-50 chance of getting a fair priced and good quality repair when you take your vehicle to a garage, according to W-FIVE's annual survey.
W-FIVE's hidden camera investigation of the auto repair industry has become an annual tradition. Once again, W-FIVE has worked alongside the Automobile Protection Association (APA) to get an under-the-hood look at which shops consumers can trust when their vehicle needs work.
This year's survey is the biggest one yet, looking at more than 50 garages from four of Canada's biggest cities and the results are the worst yet.
The test vehicle this year is a 1999 Dodge Caravan. Prior to beginning the survey, APA president George Iny and licensed mechanic Sam Kessam, gave the vehicle a thorough check-up and replace anything that isn't in excellent condition. Throughout the test, the vehicle was also given daily check-ups.
There was of course, there was one little problem.
"We have just left the negative post loose on the battery," said Kessam.
By loosening the battery's connection, sometimes the vehicle won't start. This is the problem the APA's secret shoppers will explain to the mechanics. Any shop that can't find the problem or does unnecessary work fails.
"You should be getting 100 per cent correction and a very small charge or no charge in every case," said Iny.
Sam has been working alongside the APA for 15 years. He thinks this year's test is too easy.
"It's a very stupid test... because it's very easy to pick it up."
Once the mechanics are finished getting the van into perfect working order, W-FIVE installs a hidden camera in the van's hood to show exactly what the mechanics are doing.
MONTREAL
"Traditionally Montreal garages have presented lower than average repair bills," said Iny.
But not this year. Although the Canadian Tire store in the Montreal suburb of Laval discovered the problem in 15 seconds, the APA received a final bill of $481.79
"We got a new alternator, even though ours was perfect. We put that back in the vehicle. They replaced our brand new fuel filter. They put in a new PCV valve, which wasn't as good as the original PCV valve, so we put ours back on," said Iny.
Anytime a garage replaces parts unnecessarily, the APA gets their old parts back, has them inspected and re-installed. When W-FIVE asked the Canadian Tire shop to explain why they did these unnecessary repairs, they sent a letter essentially saying they stand by their work.
When the APA shoppers took the van to the Ahuntsic Auto Centre, they were told several parts needed replacing, one for an especially peculiar reason.
"Apparently squirrels ate our spark plug cable... We were told that they must have nested in the engine and chewed up the cable. In fact, the cable was about a week old and had been checked that morning," said Iny.
The total bill was $368.59.
Overall, there were eight out of 13 failures in Montreal. That's a 62 per cent failure rate in the hometown of the APA.
"It does make you wonder why we even open the door in the morning. It was really too bad. We were disappointed," said Iny.
TORONTO
Toronto has a spotty history in the APA's previous surveys.
At the independent LAP Automotive, the secret shoppers were told the starter needed replacing.
The total bill for the unnecessary starter was $293.25. A quick trip to an APA certified garage confirmed that LAP Automotive rebuilt a perfectly good starter.
"They actually found the problem with the battery terminal and corrected it... And yet they then went further along the circuit and actually changed a starter that was in perfect working condition. I've never seen anything like it," said Iny.
The management at LAP Automotive declined W-FIVE's request for an interview. So, W-FIVE's Wei Chen paid them a visit. The store manager, Louie denied any wrongdoing.
"They came here with a problem. We diagnosed the problem. We told them what was wrong. They said go ahead and fix it and we fixed it," says Louie.
LAP Automotive may have been a glaring failure according to the APA, but it certainly wasn't the only failure in Toronto.
The APA was amazed by the number of places that failed by not fixing the van's loose battery connection, such as shops like the Sears Auto Centre in the Toronto suburb of Pickering.
At a Midas shop in the east end of Toronto, not only didn't they fix the loose battery connection but for some reason they needlessly rotated the tires.
In Toronto, eight out of 16 garages failed - a failure rate of 50 per cent.
"At the time we were stunned because we never expected that this test would generate this kind of failure rate," said Iny.
CALGARY
The APA's first trip to Calgary proved to be a real eye opener for APA president George Iny. Little did he know that the biggest repair bills were yet to come.
One of the first shops visited by the APA was Canadian Tire on MacLeod Trail. The van was left at the shop for about an hour. The only problem with the vehicle is a loose battery connection. But the hidden hood camera shows that the mechanics did a lot more than just tighten it.
When the APA's secret shoppers came to pick-up the van, the service advisor gave them a close look at the spark plug wires that were removed from the van and replaced. What happened next even shocked George Iny.
"Those are our plug wires. He's showing us that they're defective. He's making them defective... They're being torn. He just broke it. I can't believe it."
They also replaced the spark plugs, the spark plug wires, the cap and rotor, did the injection flush and fuel filter. All of those parts were only weeks old. The total charges were $620.47.
W-FIVE asked the shop for an interview, but was directed to talk with Canadian Tire's head office. Head office said we couldn't speak to the service manager, Richard Langwell. But W-FIVE paid him a visit anyway.
"Canadian Tire will contact you and set up a formal interview. I'm certain," he said.
In fact he repeated that message 14 times. W-FIVE waited for weeks but never received a call from Canadian Tire's head office.
That Canadian Tire's record for the highest repair bill in the country would be broken by the Sears Auto Centre at the Chinook Shopping mall.
They put in a new starter, spark plugs, struts and that's not all. As well, they did a wheel alignment, an adjustment and cleaning of the rear brakes for a grand total of $1240.28.
Incredibly, when the APA examined the newly installed struts they discovered poor workmanship. According to the APA, the vehicle was in worse shape after it came out of their shop.
"The part has actually been stripped when it was installed... They mangled the mounting hole because the bolts they used were too short. We were astonished to see that... They left the washers off as well," said Iny.
The Sears head office turned down W-FIVE's request for an interview with the service manager. But with such an outrageous bill, W-FIVE felt the APA deserved an explanation and visited the shop.
"If there's a dispute then obviously yes, there may have been mistakes made but it certainly wouldn't have been intentional. But again, I have no further comment on that," said manager, Russ Trabor to Wei Chen.
Sears' head office later sent W-FIVE a fax stating, "If there was any wrongdoing, the Company will take every step to remedy the situation."
W-FIVE was later advised that Sears had in fact conducted an internal investigation as a result of the survey and had refunded the full cost of the repair to the APA.
Calgary gets the distinction for a new all-time high for amounts charged and six out of 10 garages failed - a 60 per cent failure rate.
VANCOUVER
Vancouver hasn't fared very well in the APA's past surveys.
The APA visited the HC Tire and Auto Services in the Vancouver bedroom community of Richmond.
W-FIVE's hood camera showed they found the loose connection in only seconds. But they went on to replace the APA's battery, which was in perfect working order with another new one. The bill this time was $195.74.
They refused W-FIVE's repeated requests for an interview so Wei Chen also paid them a visit.
One of the manager's colleagues told him in Mandarin to tell W-FIVE that the work had nothing to do with the current employees. Little did he know that Wei understood every word he was saying.
"I'm just curious, why he would say that because it's the same people that the APA dealt with when they came in? So why would he say that the business changed hands?" says Chen.
They went on to tell W-FIVE that the APA battery was weak and that's why they replaced it.
They may have failed the test, but most Vancouver shops fared better this year, including a Fountain Tire outlet in Delta. It is the APA's pick as the top garage in this year's survey and a shop that Iny wouldn't hesitate to take his own vehicle.
"Believe it or not, they did the repair at no charge in under 15 minutes and they also included a complete check of our charging system and sent us on our way."
Vancouver went from the worst city in recent years to the best in this year's survey with four out of 12 failures, a 33 per cent failure rate.
OVERALL NATIONAL RESULTS
However the overall results are pretty dismal for the repair industry in Canada.
Twenty-six failures out of 51 garages. The failure rate of 51 per cent is the worst rate in years.
"They're ripping you off. You're paying for repairs that are either unnecessary or they're missing legitimate work... They're too interested in checking parts that they can sell you as opposed to finding the parts that are actually bad," says Iny.
Raymond Datt is the president of the Automobile Industry Association. He doesn't believe consumers have any reason to be concerned.
"I'm not convinced like you that the problem is as large as it's made out to be."
He says that the majority of consumers are quite happy with the service they get. However, according to Iny, most people don't know they've been ripped off. Iny has the following advice for consumers.
"You've got to really sort of be a little strategic in your thinking. A word of mouth referral from a longtime customer. Forget about advertising. I'd also suggest maybe consulting the APA website."
And you may also want to remember this advice from the staff at Lap Automotive in Toronto.
"If you think that we ripped you off, or we're ripping anybody off then don't come here, we don't need you.
--------------------
Shops of Horrors: An investigation of car mechanics
CTV.ca News Staff
You have a 50-50 chance of getting a fair priced and good quality repair when you take your vehicle to a garage, according to W-FIVE's annual survey.
W-FIVE's hidden camera investigation of the auto repair industry has become an annual tradition. Once again, W-FIVE has worked alongside the Automobile Protection Association (APA) to get an under-the-hood look at which shops consumers can trust when their vehicle needs work.
This year's survey is the biggest one yet, looking at more than 50 garages from four of Canada's biggest cities and the results are the worst yet.
The test vehicle this year is a 1999 Dodge Caravan. Prior to beginning the survey, APA president George Iny and licensed mechanic Sam Kessam, gave the vehicle a thorough check-up and replace anything that isn't in excellent condition. Throughout the test, the vehicle was also given daily check-ups.
There was of course, there was one little problem.
"We have just left the negative post loose on the battery," said Kessam.
By loosening the battery's connection, sometimes the vehicle won't start. This is the problem the APA's secret shoppers will explain to the mechanics. Any shop that can't find the problem or does unnecessary work fails.
"You should be getting 100 per cent correction and a very small charge or no charge in every case," said Iny.
Sam has been working alongside the APA for 15 years. He thinks this year's test is too easy.
"It's a very stupid test... because it's very easy to pick it up."
Once the mechanics are finished getting the van into perfect working order, W-FIVE installs a hidden camera in the van's hood to show exactly what the mechanics are doing.
MONTREAL
"Traditionally Montreal garages have presented lower than average repair bills," said Iny.
But not this year. Although the Canadian Tire store in the Montreal suburb of Laval discovered the problem in 15 seconds, the APA received a final bill of $481.79
"We got a new alternator, even though ours was perfect. We put that back in the vehicle. They replaced our brand new fuel filter. They put in a new PCV valve, which wasn't as good as the original PCV valve, so we put ours back on," said Iny.
Anytime a garage replaces parts unnecessarily, the APA gets their old parts back, has them inspected and re-installed. When W-FIVE asked the Canadian Tire shop to explain why they did these unnecessary repairs, they sent a letter essentially saying they stand by their work.
When the APA shoppers took the van to the Ahuntsic Auto Centre, they were told several parts needed replacing, one for an especially peculiar reason.
"Apparently squirrels ate our spark plug cable... We were told that they must have nested in the engine and chewed up the cable. In fact, the cable was about a week old and had been checked that morning," said Iny.
The total bill was $368.59.
Overall, there were eight out of 13 failures in Montreal. That's a 62 per cent failure rate in the hometown of the APA.
"It does make you wonder why we even open the door in the morning. It was really too bad. We were disappointed," said Iny.
TORONTO
Toronto has a spotty history in the APA's previous surveys.
At the independent LAP Automotive, the secret shoppers were told the starter needed replacing.
The total bill for the unnecessary starter was $293.25. A quick trip to an APA certified garage confirmed that LAP Automotive rebuilt a perfectly good starter.
"They actually found the problem with the battery terminal and corrected it... And yet they then went further along the circuit and actually changed a starter that was in perfect working condition. I've never seen anything like it," said Iny.
The management at LAP Automotive declined W-FIVE's request for an interview. So, W-FIVE's Wei Chen paid them a visit. The store manager, Louie denied any wrongdoing.
"They came here with a problem. We diagnosed the problem. We told them what was wrong. They said go ahead and fix it and we fixed it," says Louie.
LAP Automotive may have been a glaring failure according to the APA, but it certainly wasn't the only failure in Toronto.
The APA was amazed by the number of places that failed by not fixing the van's loose battery connection, such as shops like the Sears Auto Centre in the Toronto suburb of Pickering.
At a Midas shop in the east end of Toronto, not only didn't they fix the loose battery connection but for some reason they needlessly rotated the tires.
In Toronto, eight out of 16 garages failed - a failure rate of 50 per cent.
"At the time we were stunned because we never expected that this test would generate this kind of failure rate," said Iny.
CALGARY
The APA's first trip to Calgary proved to be a real eye opener for APA president George Iny. Little did he know that the biggest repair bills were yet to come.
One of the first shops visited by the APA was Canadian Tire on MacLeod Trail. The van was left at the shop for about an hour. The only problem with the vehicle is a loose battery connection. But the hidden hood camera shows that the mechanics did a lot more than just tighten it.
When the APA's secret shoppers came to pick-up the van, the service advisor gave them a close look at the spark plug wires that were removed from the van and replaced. What happened next even shocked George Iny.
"Those are our plug wires. He's showing us that they're defective. He's making them defective... They're being torn. He just broke it. I can't believe it."
They also replaced the spark plugs, the spark plug wires, the cap and rotor, did the injection flush and fuel filter. All of those parts were only weeks old. The total charges were $620.47.
W-FIVE asked the shop for an interview, but was directed to talk with Canadian Tire's head office. Head office said we couldn't speak to the service manager, Richard Langwell. But W-FIVE paid him a visit anyway.
"Canadian Tire will contact you and set up a formal interview. I'm certain," he said.
In fact he repeated that message 14 times. W-FIVE waited for weeks but never received a call from Canadian Tire's head office.
That Canadian Tire's record for the highest repair bill in the country would be broken by the Sears Auto Centre at the Chinook Shopping mall.
They put in a new starter, spark plugs, struts and that's not all. As well, they did a wheel alignment, an adjustment and cleaning of the rear brakes for a grand total of $1240.28.
Incredibly, when the APA examined the newly installed struts they discovered poor workmanship. According to the APA, the vehicle was in worse shape after it came out of their shop.
"The part has actually been stripped when it was installed... They mangled the mounting hole because the bolts they used were too short. We were astonished to see that... They left the washers off as well," said Iny.
The Sears head office turned down W-FIVE's request for an interview with the service manager. But with such an outrageous bill, W-FIVE felt the APA deserved an explanation and visited the shop.
"If there's a dispute then obviously yes, there may have been mistakes made but it certainly wouldn't have been intentional. But again, I have no further comment on that," said manager, Russ Trabor to Wei Chen.
Sears' head office later sent W-FIVE a fax stating, "If there was any wrongdoing, the Company will take every step to remedy the situation."
W-FIVE was later advised that Sears had in fact conducted an internal investigation as a result of the survey and had refunded the full cost of the repair to the APA.
Calgary gets the distinction for a new all-time high for amounts charged and six out of 10 garages failed - a 60 per cent failure rate.
VANCOUVER
Vancouver hasn't fared very well in the APA's past surveys.
The APA visited the HC Tire and Auto Services in the Vancouver bedroom community of Richmond.
W-FIVE's hood camera showed they found the loose connection in only seconds. But they went on to replace the APA's battery, which was in perfect working order with another new one. The bill this time was $195.74.
They refused W-FIVE's repeated requests for an interview so Wei Chen also paid them a visit.
One of the manager's colleagues told him in Mandarin to tell W-FIVE that the work had nothing to do with the current employees. Little did he know that Wei understood every word he was saying.
"I'm just curious, why he would say that because it's the same people that the APA dealt with when they came in? So why would he say that the business changed hands?" says Chen.
They went on to tell W-FIVE that the APA battery was weak and that's why they replaced it.
They may have failed the test, but most Vancouver shops fared better this year, including a Fountain Tire outlet in Delta. It is the APA's pick as the top garage in this year's survey and a shop that Iny wouldn't hesitate to take his own vehicle.
"Believe it or not, they did the repair at no charge in under 15 minutes and they also included a complete check of our charging system and sent us on our way."
Vancouver went from the worst city in recent years to the best in this year's survey with four out of 12 failures, a 33 per cent failure rate.
OVERALL NATIONAL RESULTS
However the overall results are pretty dismal for the repair industry in Canada.
Twenty-six failures out of 51 garages. The failure rate of 51 per cent is the worst rate in years.
"They're ripping you off. You're paying for repairs that are either unnecessary or they're missing legitimate work... They're too interested in checking parts that they can sell you as opposed to finding the parts that are actually bad," says Iny.
Raymond Datt is the president of the Automobile Industry Association. He doesn't believe consumers have any reason to be concerned.
"I'm not convinced like you that the problem is as large as it's made out to be."
He says that the majority of consumers are quite happy with the service they get. However, according to Iny, most people don't know they've been ripped off. Iny has the following advice for consumers.
"You've got to really sort of be a little strategic in your thinking. A word of mouth referral from a longtime customer. Forget about advertising. I'd also suggest maybe consulting the APA website."
And you may also want to remember this advice from the staff at Lap Automotive in Toronto.
"If you think that we ripped you off, or we're ripping anybody off then don't come here, we don't need you.
--------------------
23-Jul-2004, 04:44 PM
#5
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sauga
Posts: 89
Moral of the story is that Mechanics are crooks.
It is good to find a shop/mechanic that you know and trust and just stick to them for all the work you can't do yourself... the blatant thievery of most shops has gotten to the point where I do not even trust dealerships anymore...
It is good to find a shop/mechanic that you know and trust and just stick to them for all the work you can't do yourself... the blatant thievery of most shops has gotten to the point where I do not even trust dealerships anymore...
23-Jul-2004, 04:47 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,907
well if you send your ride there totally ignorant of the problem, it's gold for them to try and rip you off...
but if you send your ride to a shop and telling them what you want fixed and ONLY fixed, they can't **** around..
then again this mechanics bull**** has been going on for as long as i can remember
but if you send your ride to a shop and telling them what you want fixed and ONLY fixed, they can't **** around..
then again this mechanics bull**** has been going on for as long as i can remember
23-Jul-2004, 04:49 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 322
I'm not surprised by this...there should be penalties for this type of dishonest business conduct.
I wonder if its the managers and owners that are instructing their employees to do this, or the mechanics are doin it on their own to make some extra pocket cash.
I wonder if its the managers and owners that are instructing their employees to do this, or the mechanics are doin it on their own to make some extra pocket cash.
23-Jul-2004, 05:02 PM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: 43° 41' N 79° 38' W
Posts: 9,277
Originally posted by Nova_Dust
And I also stand by the car while the mechanic is working on it, so I know exactly what he is doing. Of course, I know the guy so he is cool to let me stay in the garage.
And I also stand by the car while the mechanic is working on it, so I know exactly what he is doing. Of course, I know the guy so he is cool to let me stay in the garage.
I suspect smoking and rice wine are allowed in this garage..
I take it there for big things..
And the occasional winter oil change..My conversational chinese has gotten better because of it..
23-Jul-2004, 05:59 PM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Peel Region
Posts: 683
i had my brakes inspected by honda dealership A and was told that my drums had 5% brake life left and for $89 i can have the brake serviced and cleaned and it would last me until my next check up. i then took my car to dealership B for a 2nd opinion and they told me that my drums had 40% life left and told me to leave them alone for awhile. the mechanic at dealership B took me into the shop and showed me the drums and even told me that they get paid by piece rate only. fortunately he was honest and didn't make a dime off me.
moral of the story -- dealerships can be just as crooked as anyone else out there and always get a 2nd opinion unless you have a mechanic you can trust
moral of the story -- dealerships can be just as crooked as anyone else out there and always get a 2nd opinion unless you have a mechanic you can trust
23-Jul-2004, 11:23 PM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North York,Ontario
Posts: 2,544
Well, it's a scum business, the car industry...
That's why I have used Altech Performance to fix my Car !
Really , Really honest and helpful , and the work they do is top notch !
I will never go to any other shop !
That's why I have used Altech Performance to fix my Car !
Really , Really honest and helpful , and the work they do is top notch !
I will never go to any other shop !
24-Jul-2004, 12:43 AM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: I used to have a Civic, now I'm spoolin'
Posts: 1,254
This is why a haynes or chilton manual is damn handy. Not to mention this site. Knowledge is power. Think of it folks - look at the pool of "talent" at your local crappy tire...If they can do it - you can do it!
"trust your mechanic to mend your car
bring it in to his garage..
he tightens and loosens a few spare parts
one thing's fixed, another falls apart...
and the rich eat you!!!!"
"trust your mechanic to mend your car
bring it in to his garage..
he tightens and loosens a few spare parts
one thing's fixed, another falls apart...
and the rich eat you!!!!"
23-Apr-2005, 09:55 AM
#17
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: around ..la la la...
Posts: 188
Originally posted by bevboyy
This is why a haynes or chilton manual is damn handy. Not to mention this site. Knowledge is power. Think of it folks - look at the pool of "talent" at your local crappy tire...If they can do it - you can do it!"
This is why a haynes or chilton manual is damn handy. Not to mention this site. Knowledge is power. Think of it folks - look at the pool of "talent" at your local crappy tire...If they can do it - you can do it!"
Very true. A lot of those guys at crappy tire are learning.. they are 'training in progress'. A Honda haynes manual is always well worth it. And as someone mentioned above..just stand right beside them. I used to work in the parts department at Crappy tire...and sooooooooooooo many times...the mechanics would be changing pads and shoes..etc... that were perfectly fine.. and when i would question them on it...they would come up with some stupid response. Crappy tire is a no no no no no no no.
23-Apr-2005, 10:22 AM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,753
Canadian Tire is the last place you should take your car. The only time i took my car to CT is when the alternator broke down right infront of their place, so i had them check it up and they said i needed a new battery new belt and new alternator, I had nothing better to do, just wanted to know what they'll say, anways i took it to a good place "Windsor Powerhouse" they just rebuilt my alternator and they said my battery just needed a charge and all my belts were fine plus i got a 90 day warrenty and the rebult has been good for like 6 months now
23-Apr-2005, 11:32 AM
#19
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Somewhere out there...
Posts: 4,606
thats a good read, thanks for posting it up...I enjoy that w-five show, I should watch it more...
ya, I try to do most of my work myself, I mean, most of it isn't that hard really if you just take your time and figure it out...
ya, I try to do most of my work myself, I mean, most of it isn't that hard really if you just take your time and figure it out...
